Lore talk:Jakben

Imperial or Breton?

I had inadvertently cited the gamespace article in a discussion on the Bethsoft lore forums when someone brought to my attention this discrepancy with UESP's own lore article, which shows Jakben's race as an Imperial. According to the Oblivion CSList, Jabken, the Earl of Imbel, is definitely a Breton. Can someone confirm why this lore article states that he's of Imperial stock rather than Bretonish? — Daric✐ 20:53, 13 May 2013 (GMT)

Thanks for the notification. I must have seen that he was born to a "noble Imperial family" in the text and made a bad assumption. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 20:58, 13 May 2013 (GMT)

Okay, now the Summary Box is inconsistent with the text. Why is it assumed that "he was born into a noble Imperial family" at all? There doesn't appear to be anything that states he's Imperial or that his family is Imperial. There is nothing in the book Imbel Genealogy (which, by the way, doesn't have a copy in lorespace) to say that the family is Imperial. They may live in Cyrodiil, but does that make them Imperials? It could be surmised from the book that the Imbels were Dunmer, being that the earliest recorded ancestor, Artan (and his son Faren), were buried in Vvardenfell, near Suran. But that's just conjecture from an in-game book which doesn't even mention Jakben as a descendant. What we do know for a fact, from the game data, is that Jakben himself was a Breton, thus his family would also be Bretons. — Daric✐ 21:11, 13 May 2013 (GMT)

Well, it's not necessarily inconsistent; it claims he was born to an Imperial family, but that doesn't dictate every member of that family must be an Imperial. If Jakben's mother was a Breton, he would be Breton. See Notes on Racial Phylogeny. The general family could still be largely Imperial. Anyways, you'd have to ask Legoless about the Imperial family business; he wrote it. Or you would just clean the article up. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 21:24, 13 May 2013 (GMT)

Interestingly, I was thinking about Notes on Racial Phylogeny when I read Imbel Genealogy, and how brazenly they conflict with each other. According to Imbel Genealogy, the "family traces lineage strictly through the male line of heirs, as any right-thinking nobility would", yet Racial Phylogeny states that "offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present." Any idea why there is discord here between the two in-game books? — Daric✐ 21:33, 13 May 2013 (GMT)

People tracing their lineage doesn't mean that's the traits they take on. If the nobility is passed down solely through male offspring, then they would trace their lineage through the male line, regardless of race. Jeancey (talk) 21:37, 13 May 2013 (GMT)

(←) Thanks for that Jeancey. The Septims are a case in point. Katariah the Dunmer, for example. That makes sense. I'd still like to see some evidence of Jakben's family being Imperial. Otherwise this is just supposition and probably shouldn't be in a lore article without corroboration that negates the obvious fact that Jakben himself is a Breton. — Daric✐ 21:45, 13 May 2013 (GMT)

(edit conflict × 2) The genealogy is following real-world traditions of tracing male lineage, despite the genetic dominance of the mother in the TES universe. Interesting discrepancy. Anyway, I can't remember where the "Imperial family" line came from, so it should probably be amended. —Legoless (talk) 22:50, 13 May 2013 (GMT)

Thanks for clarifying that, Legoless. I have removed the mention of the family being "Imperial", and have not replaced it with anything. As this discussion above has shown, to attribute any such race to the family, whether Imperial, Dunmer, or even Breton, would be an assumption. Best just to leave it out entirely, eh? As far as my fan-fic is concerned, the Imbels were an old Breton family. 😁 — Daric✐ 23:12, 13 May 2013 (GMT)